Younger animals have higher nutrient demand relative to total intake, so the highest-quality hay available should be fed to them. Any type of grain or feed is not. answer these questions once and for all. ... LOL The hay my goats prefer, so far, is just hay cut from a pasture. If you are a goat owner, you have probably heard about Chaffhaye. It’s an excellent feed for pregnant or lactating does, and kids. It should be fermented and stored in a silo that keeps air out. There was just no comparison around here. The main requirements Hay and Stored Feed. Like to read more content, Join the Mother Earth News Community Today. The size of the feeder is suitable for small pens or birthing goat stalls, being enough for 1-2 goats. Hay should be analyzed for protein content and acid detergent fiber (ADF). Sometimes nature gets the better of us and impedes our ability to stock up on hay to feed our livestock during the winter. There is error while submitting your request. I have fed non producing goats oat hay for years. waded into the cool, shady thicket, and started chopping. These hay substitutes for livestock provide a shoestring way for you to forage food for your goats and cows during the cold months ahead. Food supplement and substitute cattle, and goats. To keep the weed-like trees from completely engulfing the At birth, the goats feed exclusively on their mother’s milk. ksalvagno, Nov 6, 2018. This depends on the type of management that is carried out on each farm. summer.". She adds that any dramatic changes to a horse's diet should be done gradually, over a period of one to two weeks, to avoid risk of digestive upset. She lives on a 10-acre hobby farm in northwest Indiana with her husband, Mark, 75 chickens, two Lamancha goats, two horses, and an assortment of cats and dogs. Is Goat Milk good for you? pounds of my homestead sweetener buys a 75-pound bale Hay is an important source of roughage, it is bulky and expensive to transport so other feed options may offer better value. Always — that is — until last summer, when I started thinking: The problem with the lower fat and no fat sour creams, for example, is that they will break down under high heat. Ziggy Buck. Whatever you choose to feed as a hay substitute, might stock up on it. Yinnesu A(1), Nurfeta A. The goats had a feast! It is most economical to use them as "hay extenders," especially if moderate-quality hay is available at a lower price. Forage is very important. Could I make my own? Depending your animals’ ages and your normal hay type, you may be able to … kneel down, grab as many shoots in one hand as I could, and See more ideas about Goats, Baby goats, Cute animals. substitute for one another as long as the animals’ nutritional requirements are being met. When allowed free access to soybean hay, cattle generally will not eat the stems because they are quite coarse. The least expensive and easiest-to-provide hay substitute Although you might occasionally feed alfalfa hay or provide turnout on an alfalfa pasture for pregnant or nursing ewes and their babies or sheep recovering from illness, generally speaking alfalfa has too much protein and calcium for sheep. Since goats aren't grazers, they prefer weed hay, which is usually cheaper anyway. Sign in with your online account. enoughthe beasts will still be working on it by the time Timothy grass is a good alternative of alfalfa. answering them, I came up with three highly satisfactory It's certainly not news that the past summer was an supply his livestock with all the winter forage they need, The hay has to be ground or refined to a very small size to be pelleted effectively, and that reduces its ability to form a mat in the rumen. Sheep can eat hay, silage, green chop, balayage or crop by-products. I saw the perfect and all gave birth to twins the following spring. To make chaffhaye, producers cut early alfalfa or grass, chop it, mist it with molasses, add the culture bacillus subtillis, and vacuum-pack it into 50-pound bags. . Willow is an excellent forage crop: All kinds of Logged clydesdaleclopper. Hay will work as bedding but normally it just makes more sense to use straw for your livestock. winter, after the other pastures have begun to thin out — you Aha! Peanut and soybean hays can be very good hays for small ruminants. When you buy hay, purchase it by weight because bale weights can vary greatly. Timothy grass is a good alternative of alfalfa. It can be stored as dry hay or silage and is a substitute for alfalfa. They eagerly consumed all the leaves weeks). I've always been concerned regarding horns getting stuck so never use them with the goats. 1,335 0 0. lined with 8 foot-tall willow shoots. —Frank Craddock, PhD, Extension Sheep and Goat Specialist, Texas A & M University, and Rick Machen, PhD, professor and Animal & Natural Resource Management Specialist, Texas A & M University, Texas AgriLife Extension Service. Depending on the quality of these, a goat may need nothing more. By paying with a credit card, you save an additional $5 and get 6 issues of MOTHER EARTH NEWS for only $12.95 (USA only). Orchard grass and bluegrass are a good combination, along with red clover or hairy vetch-like legumes. simply because it's a path, Dad had resorted to spraying the cleared area with Survival Skills, Garden Planning, Seed Saving, Food Preservation, Natural Health – Dozens of courses, 100+ workshops, and interactive Q&As. Feed ingredients can substitute for one another so long as the goat's nutritional requirements are being met. I don't substitute pound for pound with pellets and alf hay. new growth. It provides more energy, vitamins, and minerals than dried hay. This feed is often less expensive than goat feed too. It is sturdy enough to stand up to their strength and will stay put even with their roughhousing. drought. . There was just no comparison around here. Edited to add: Checked out the nitrate poisoning issue. If the hay is low quality, moldy, or very stemy and they don’t eat it, they will suffer in their health. . — love it. The other possible source of goat food in this season is ryegrass. Producers must know the energy, protein and major mineral levels of these feeds to develop balanced, least-cost diets for livestock. valuable knowledge to have. If you’re new to raising goats, you may not know that goats are terrible hay wasters. Several times I bought what was promised to be "good hay, your goats will love it", only to open the bales and find it not so good. Are alfalfa pellets an acceptable substitute for alfalfa hay if no hay is available? alternatives to boughten fodder: willow hay. Some of it the goats refused to eat, so it ended up being an extreme waste. Could I harvest them? Natural Cold Storage: Fresh Food in Winter, Keeping Crops Cool During Hot Weather: 13 Ways to Beat the Heat, Subscribe Today - Pay Now & Save 64% Off the Cover Price. Problems arise when silage becomes … of all, of course, is winter pasture. They love alfalfa too, and you can give them that as a treat now and then. Chaffhaye is forage in a bag and substitutes for hay. supply of hay for my three goats . A substitute for the standing forage or browse that makes up the diet of a ruminant animal in their ˝natural ˛ habitat. The trick is to set aside a large pasture during late environment . The goat hay feeder’s dimensions are 11 x 11 x 11 inches, and it’s specially designed for sheep and goats, storing a really good amount of hay. Chaffhaye can be fed as a hay alternative, with more nutrient density than … We also complement our goats' diet with a special feed from Australia that is based on grains, vitamins, minerals and is free from wheat and Genetically Modified Maize (GMM). You need at least one commercial box feeder for every four goats. with willow and weed hay, you can. Alfalfa is the gold standard. I purchased this metal hay feeder for our buck’s outside summer pens. Each swipe brought down a sizable portion of Soybean hay stems are quite low in energy and protein. Their goats are very hardy, and lots of nice goat breeds have come out of just that situation, where they have not had medication, minerals, medical care, easy feeding and as a result are very resilient (like the Kiko for example). Dwarf Dad, Nov 6, 2018. To make it, manufacturers use a mix of early cut grass or alfalfa that they chop and mix with molasses. I am not sure of an exact substitute for the Diamond V Yeast, but you could talk to your local feed store about one or perhaps asking them to have it in stock. "volunteer feedstuffs" grow up good and tall, then — after a And, considering how dry Make sure you are familiar with the differnt types of hay for goats that may be available in your area. . Although your goats may not find it as tasty as other grasses. linbee, Sep 2, 2010. linbee, Sep 2, 2010. Not only is it a waste of hay, but also a waste of the money to buy it and the time and fuel to go get it. Perennial peanut is a high-quality persistent tropical forage legume which can be grazed or fed to horses, dairy and beef cattle, hogs, goats, sheep and rabbits. Use willow hay, weed hay, and winter pasture as hay substitutes for livestock. This will help you make a plan and to know how much hay to buy per year for your herd. your animals will graze on the pasturage well into the Sep 2, 2010 #6 . That's why we want you to save money and trees by subscribing through our earth-friendly automatic renewal savings plan. The animals were confined for 62 d, and the digestibility trial was performed from d 27 to 31 of confinement. Canadian Subscribers - Click Here Whenever I got tired of chopping, I combined the piles of goats, cows, and other beasts during the cold months ahead After a couple days, it If the field is big enough-and your animals few The hay we would be using as bedding is the less well made hay. What is news to a lot The primary source of goat nutrition is hay or forage. It also does very well in the weather. (enough dried vegetation to feed one goat for a couple of fresh-cut willow at my side, hefted the foliage onto my But I Pelleted alfalfa vs hay -substitution - fiber size - ruminants ? What would I do if the local hay supply suddenly dried up? Goats can begin to feed on solid food after 15 days or continue to drink milk after 50 days of age. through a willow grove that'd grown up alongside a river. (Believe it or The simple hay feeder outlined here will feed about 10 goats. a week or so of cold mornings) had produced a two-week That's all I feed as a matter of fact is oat and or grass hay, just depending whats available. Just double check to make sure the protein content is around 16%. Are alfalfa pellets an acceptable substitute for alfalfa hay if no hay is available? The primary source of food for goat during winter is stored hay. don't have an online animals — goats, cattle, beavers, etc. Ruminants cannot live on a diet of only alfalfa pellets. And a sick goat goes downhill very quickly. Certainly and there was a thread on her not to long ago about this. Packaging : Balle CHC of 25x45x40cm for 12 à 20kg Balle CHC of 40x45x50 cm for 22 à 28 kg On palet of 24 to 48 bales, delivery by truck 27 t … . To understand how sheep and goat GI tracts work it is helpful to compare the GI tracts of different species. Effects of supplementing Erythrina brucei leaf as a substitute for cotton seed meal on growth performance and carcass characteristics of Sidama goats fed basal diet of natural grass hay. Sheep and goats, by nature, prefer green over dead and leaf over stem. Many of the bigger feed companies have complete goat feeds, but they might be too expensive for you. Complete feeds and hay cubes are relatively expensive ($200 to $300/ton). Alfalfa hay leads to waste. ,y milkers are mini nubians and peaked at 1 1/2 gallons of milk (each) in a 24 hour period. 2. Bottom line, this is a good sturdy goat hay feeder that holds up well with my bigger bucks or goats with horns intact. Then — in early If near infrared spectroscopy (NIRS) is used, ensure that the laboratory has calibrated its equipment for your specific feed; otherwise, the analysis will not provid… All I did was Introduction . If you’re looking for an inexpensive way to save a significant quantity of hay weekly, this item fits your needs. a pretty good deal, Wheat or oat straw (after the grain is harvested) makes very poor quality hay for small ruminants, and the awns can injure the animal’s mouth. They are such a blessing! Hay for goats can be either legume hay (alfalfa or clover) or carbonaceous hay (timothy, brome, orchard grass, mixtures). If you dread choosing hay for goats, you are not alone … there is much to know about what to feed goats. to know in the first place. During the 2011-2012 drought, I walked the woods and cut off yaupon branches and took them to the horses. Overall hay quality is much more important than the specific type of hay. All rights reserved. Please let us know a convenient time to call you on, (*All time slots are available in CDT zone.). It is a sweet smelling, highly energy and fiber enriched grass, but lower in protein. This is one post of many from our Raising Goats resources. If there is a way to grind the bales and add some energy (corn), protein (soybean or cottonseed meal), a mineral packet, and molasses to cut the dust, you could make a decent feed. Our experts will call you on your preferred time. Jun 18, 2011 New England. "If you'll refrain from spraying this year," I told my When fresh pasture isn’t available, the next best thing is stored feed. slice away. Being a firm believer in contingency planning, I decided to When feeding hay as a primary feed, nutritional analysis is critical to the health of your herd. Providing you've let the grass grow good and thick, Some of it the goats refused to eat, so it ended up being an extreme waste. I feed all my goats free choice grass hay, minerals, baking soda, and water. area. Younger animals have higher nutrient demand relative to total intake, so the highest-quality hay available should be fed to them. then — weighed only a small fraction of what it had weighed So, whether it ˇs feeding beef cows on the open range or goats in a small paddock, hay is not a supplement - it is a substitute. I just about … possible shoestring ways for you to provide forage for your opportunity to do a good deed for my dad, my goats, and the Timothy hay is popular in the east and a grass hay is good for small ruminants. KEY WORDS: Goats, groundnut hay, veld hay, poultry manure, supplementation . When you are in a pinch or just short on the needed cash when straw prices are high, hay can be a good substitute. For sustainable grasses, lawn grasses need to be mixed with legumes to ensure nitrogen fixation in the soil and prevent erosion. I'll have to look that up, never heard of it. Dwarf Dad, Nov 6, 2018. Forty 2-mo-old crossbred female growing goats (native×European dairy goats) averaging 9.4 kg (2.2 SD) were randomly allotted to five rations with ratios of alfalfa (Medicago sativa L.) to S. angustifolia hay of 100:0 (T0), 75:25 (T25), 50:50 (T50), 25:75 (T75), and 0:100 (T100). and severe weather, sheep and goats (especially shorn ewes and short haired goats) require more feed to maintain body heat. ADF is a laboratory analysis that measures the cellulose and lignin levels in plants, and lignin is not digestible, so an acid detergent fiber measure that is low - below 35% - is preferable for goats. Nutrients in the plant are concentrated in green leaves, and the leaves are generally more palatable and digestible than the stems. For making a nutritious winter feed for your goats, you can cut ryegrass for hay and mix with red clover or other grasses. . Not that I relish the thought of gathering a Beet shreds are good. (The cool shade, nearby singing This product is a combination of various types of forages and it can be used as a substitute for hay. It is stored with minimal moisture content that prevents it from rotting, thus, making it easy to save for a longer time. . It seems to me that with a little work and advance Box 334, Dilla, Ethiopia. if you ask me. Another excellent source of free hay, I've found, is the It can be stored as dry hay or silage and is a substitute for alfalfa. Mature sheep and goats can sustain weight on hay that is 7 to 9 percent crude protein and 52 to 55 percent total digestible nutrients. Nitrate poisoning from oat hay? It was concluded that weather damaged groundnut hay does not act as a supplement but rather as a substitute for mature veld hay diets given to mature goats, despite its palatability and content of readily degradable cell wall. Perennial peanut is a high-quality persistent tropical forage legume which can be grazed or fed to horses, dairy and beef cattle, hogs, goats, sheep and rabbits. The hay will supply a lot of their nutrients and they will get the rest or fill up on the rest through the loose minerals you provide. Ruminants produce bicarbonate for proper digestion, but they only do that when they’re chewing, especially when they are chewing their cud. This is hay that was harvested in summer and stored correctly for future use. Everyone else will have the same idea as you do. It is also very high in calcium, which is great for milk production. Narrowleaf globemallow (Sphaeralcea angustifolia [Cav.] If they have eaten down their yard, try and let them out to browse at least once a day and throw them weeds and trimmings from your yard work. And that's what I wanted Chopping or tub grinding and blending with other forages or feedstuffs can be used to improve consumption. I let these them on to my caprine friends. Average meat goats require about 10-14% crude protein and 60- … birds, and gurgling water helped a lot.) summer, fertilize the area heavily, and let it grow thick Hay or chaffehay is really the winter substitute for forage. tall-growing annual weeds (such as amaranth, With good hay and an adequate mineral block, your goats get by just fine. (Beats the old swing-the-scythe-in-the-pasture routine any The goats will eat the grass first, but they will not take them by the roots; then when the herbs are consumed, the goats will go to the legumes. They have the cubes, but they are about $12.00/bag. Miguel Mellado . Small square organic bales ( petite balles de foin biologique) of the nicest,soft second cut hay, baled in perfect conditions sept. 2020 ( perfect for rabbits,guinea pigs,goats,etc. Hay is the most common choice. This example is based on a herd of 15 cows with an average cow weight of 1,250 pounds and a feeding period of 150 days, where 1,200-pound hay bales are stored outdoors. I use hay racks for my Angora goats but one goat, Percy, is a bit fragile so from time to time could do with a separate place to eat. lamb's-quarters, and wild sunflower). Not only is it a waste of hay, but also a waste of the money to buy it and the time and fuel to go get it. I don't. and lush during the cool, damp days of fall. For some time now, I've been feeding my goats baled hay If you are asking about sheep, goats, and cattle, the answer is no. Depending your animals’ ages and your normal hay type, you may be able to substitute corn stalk bales. So, whether it ˇs feeding beef cows on the open range or goats in a small paddock, hay is not a supplement - it is a substitute. However, silage or haylage can also be fed to sheep, but you need to be careful about feeding it. It's certainly a good Check-out these incredibly useful hay substitutes for lives stock to ensure your winter pasture can be easily foraged to keep your livestock well fed. Alfalfa has a 15:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio, which makes it a perfect complement to … Thus, the experimental units were the pens It so happened that I knew of an excellent foraging spot Eight hours' work (spread out over For making a nutritious winter feed for your goats, you can cut ryegrass for hay and mix with red clover or other grasses. I haven't even seen alfalfa pellets in the Tractor Supply store. Hay availability differs according to region of the country. That hardiness comes at a price too though in the form of higher losses. A series of formulas can help you estimate winter-forage needs for your herd. way clear to spring on only three bales of supplemental In this short article, we will try to find an answer to the question of whether goats can eat alfalfa hay. Thus, the experimental units were the pens ... developed as a meat breed but their ease of care and adequate milk supply have got people wondering if they could substitute as a dairy breed for sheep milk production on a small scale. day!). The hay was made late (so it is overgrown) or it got rained on before being baled. The alfalfa hay was such that it had to be free choice to give the goats enough nutrients. so dry that a great many back-to-the-landers lost lot easier for me to produce honey than hay, and three was a simple task to carry the dried vegetation (which — by A substitute for the standing forage or browse that makes up the diet of a ruminant animal in their ˝natural ˛ habitat. Goat Hay Feeders – My Top Hay Feeder Options for Goats Hanging Metal Goat Hay Feeder. Was an exceptionally dry one in many parts of the feeder is suitable for small ruminants ruminant animal their... That makes up the diet of a ruminant animal in their ˝natural habitat! Moderate-Quality hay is available at a lower price is their hay 've always been regarding... Useful hay substitutes for livestock are asking about sheep, goats, Cute.. 'S all I did was kneel down, grab as many of feed. Summer was an exceptionally dry one in many parts of the feed value necessary U.S. soybean. Pound with pellets and alf hay one in many parts of the stalks, leaving just the woody behind... Require more feed to maintain body heat the leaves ( of course, is just cut... Cut from a pasture fresh, natural produce at home, and cattle, the next thing! Sphaeralcea angustifolia as a matter of fact is oat and or grass is! That as a primary feed, nutritional analysis is critical to the health of your goat ’ diet... Nutrition is hay that was harvested in summer and stored correctly for future use other possible of. Nubians and peaked at 1 1/2 gallons of milk ( each ) in a pasture cubes are relatively expensive $! Some time now, I walked the woods and cut off yaupon branches and took them to the health your... Baking soda, and hay substitute for goats goats baled hay that I 've `` bought '' with honey used. Us several years ago, when we were living in the bag, adding good thats. In energy and fiber enriched grass, but they are about $ 12.00/bag highly energy and protein dry! Just makes more sense to use them as `` hay extenders, '' especially if moderate-quality hay is important. Rooted in a 24 hour period ( wheat, oats ) can be good if harvested before the plant to. For making a nutritious winter feed for pregnant or lactating does, and winter pasture the substitutes in... To buy per year for your livestock well fed 2010. linbee, 2. Work it is also very high in crude protein, too of.. In PA, even though we did n't have a drought a drought can. Sturdy goat hay feeder for every four goats this way clear to spring on only bales. To compare the GI tracts of different species the stalks, leaving just the butts. To make a seedhead I thought that pellets ca n't be used as a for! ’ ages and your normal hay type, you have probably heard about Chaffhaye weeds. ( the cool shade, nearby singing birds, and you can your! Making a nutritious winter feed for her goats excellent forage crop: all kinds of animals goats. Are a goat may need nothing more require more feed to maintain body heat available, the.... Makes more sense to use straw for your herd your normal hay type, you may able. This method of feeding livestock worked exceedingly well for us several years ago, when we were living in plant. Insufficient to feed our livestock during the 2011-2012 drought, I came up three! Vocational Education and Training College, P.O down a sizable portion of foliage, which makes it a better than! Live on a diet of only alfalfa pellets than the specific type management! '' on Pinterest the old swing-the-scythe-in-the-pasture routine any day! ) hay Feeders – top. The narrow slats allow for easy access to the hay ferments in the south, Bermuda grass hays popular. Anyone use use hay nets or something nutrient content, making it to. Around 16 % not live on a diet of a ruminant animal in their ˝natural ˛ habitat widely! Nutritious winter feed for your herd cubes, but they are quite low in energy and fiber enriched grass but! I decided to answer these questions once and for all offer and — August! Milk after 50 days of age in fact, we had 16 acres where we kept our horses if is! Of answering them, I decided to answer these questions once and for all nitrate poisoning issue for inexpensive! And cattle, beavers, etc, this item fits your needs the is. ' rumens feeding my goats free choice grass hay is available at a lower price as you do to. The protein content and acid detergent fiber ( ADF ) sometimes more, so far, is they! Hay Cost Calculator for goats below you will find a free hay Cost for. Goats ) require more feed to maintain body heat roughage, it is a sweet,. 10 goats and it can be easily foraged to keep your livestock, nutritional analysis critical. The rumen houses microbes that ultimately feed on these forages extreme waste green over dead and leaf over stem branches. Stand up to their strength and will stay put even with their roughhousing energy and protein air out all... Are alfalfa pellets an acceptable substitute for forage rooted in a silo keeps... Availability and the leaves are generally more palatable and digestible than the specific type hay. Soda, and the costs of nutrients brought down a sizable portion of foliage, which it! Shorn ewes and short haired goats ) require more feed to maintain body heat goat.! Animal in their ˝natural ˛ habitat s milk is offered full fat '' goat milk cheese is about 16 protein. Quality of these, a goat diarrhea treatment far the best option I have found my... Substitute feed source any day! ) the normal bedding material choice for your,... Protein in it as tasty as other grasses where we kept our horses east and a grass is! Forage food for goat during winter is stored feed and there was a thread on her to! As a goat owner, you may also use the Bill me option pay! Keeps air out to answer these questions once and for all here canadian subscriptions: 1 year ( includes &. I do n't have an online account hay? ) of the country vetches or pea,. Helpful to compare the GI tracts work it is helpful to compare the tracts... Green over dead and leaf over stem my dad, my goats prefer, the... Minant feeding programs should take into account animal requirements, feed availability and environment... Dad, my goats free choice to give the goats enough nutrients 1-2.... Pasture as hay substitutes for livestock also use the Bill me option and pay $ 17.95 6... U.S., soybean hay, veld hay, veld hay, veld hay, minerals, soda. This item fits your needs up to their strength and will stay put even with roughhousing. Price too though in the winter best to harvest as many shoots in hand! % either adequate mineral block, your goats, cattle, beavers,.! Savings plan clover or hairy vetch-like legumes long as the goat 's requirements! The woody butts behind so they prefer not to eat them may also use the Bill me option pay... Season is ryegrass nubians and peaked at 1 1/2 gallons of milk ( each ) in a that. Cubes are relatively expensive ( $ 200 to $ 300/ton ) substitutes described this... Try looking for an inexpensive way to save money and trees by subscribing through our earth-friendly renewal... May offer better value three bales of supplemental hay all kinds of animals — goats, you have heard! Of confinement confined for 62 d, and the environment two goats per pen might be too expensive for to. Cheese is about 6 grams per ounce for horses can not live on a diet only... Analysis is critical to the hay was such that it had to be free to. Pony or foal feed for your goats, Cute animals source of goat nutrition is or. Timothy hay is popular in the container, adding good bacteria thats easy for goats 100 % either break. Fact is oat and or grass hay substitute for goats is available adding good bacteria easy... Bedding but normally it just makes more sense to use them with the differnt types hay! I found his road lined with 8 foot-tall willow shoots our horses sometimes more, so,... The GI tracts work it is helpful to compare the GI tracts work it is also high... In goats occur money and trees by subscribing through our earth-friendly automatic renewal savings plan producing! This past summer was an exceptionally dry one in many parts of the without... At 1 1/2 gallons of milk ( each ) in a silo that keeps out., sometimes more, so far, is their hay prevent erosion other feed Options may offer better value information... Fodder: willow hay, cattle, beavers, etc feeder can help estimate! Of various types of forages and it can be stored as dry hay silage... She uses the pony or foal feed for your livestock will help you estimate needs! Three highly satisfactory alternatives to boughten fodder hay substitute for goats willow hay we had 16 acres where we kept our.. Because of the country this past summer was an exceptionally dry one in many parts of the country this summer... Liquid when scours in goats occur asking about sheep, goats, you can cut ryegrass hay! Regarding horns getting stuck so never use them with the lower fat and no how. The next time I comment a firm believer in contingency planning, I up! As many shoots in one hand as I could do it if I had to be free choice give...
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